Behind the scenes of McLaren F1 - Podcast summary with Dr. Thomas Bscher

This summary has been generated using AI based on the transcript of the podcast episode.

The podcast episode "With Dr. Thomas Bscher on the McLaren F1" from the Old School series - hosted by Karsten Arndt - takes listeners back to the golden era of the automobile. In this episode, everything revolves around the legendary McLaren F1 super sports car and a man who experienced it like no other: Dr. Thomas Bscher. Bscher, a Cologne banker and passionate racing driver, was one of the few first owners of this vehicle and played a decisive role in bringing the McLaren F1 to the racetrack in the first place. The interview sheds light on what makes the McLaren F1 so special, what it was like to own and drive this car in the 1990s, and what anecdotes and insights Bscher contributes from first-hand experience.

The iconic status of the McLaren F1 becomes clear right from the intro to the episode. Arndt describes, for example, how even rally legend Walter Röhrl was challenged when driving this car - which raised questions as to whether the McLaren F1 was already so treacherous in everyday life back then. Celebrity owners such as Rowan Atkinson (Mr. Bean) and Elon Musk crashed their F1s, underlining the respect this car commands. Bscher now offers authentic insights into this time and this car. He talks about the history of the McLaren F1, its technical innovations and peculiarities (such as the central seating position and the BMW V12 engine) as well as his personal experiences on the road and on the race track. He also reveals the modifications he made to his own McLaren to improve its handling. The interview also draws comparisons with other super sports cars of the era and highlights the involvement of well-known personalities - from designer Gordon Murray to McLaren boss Ron Dennis - in the success story of this unique car.

Key takeaways

  • The McLaren F1 was only built in extremely small numbers (around 65 road cars instead of the 300 originally planned). Dr. Bscher explains that the car was initially almost "unsaleable" - McLaren initially found hardly any buyers for the car, which cost millions. Paradoxically, it is precisely this rarity that is causing enormous hype and extreme increases in the value of the McLaren F1 today, as only a few examples exist.
  • Dr. Thomas Bscher played a key role in developing the McLaren F1 from a pure road sports car into a racing car. As an enthusiastic private racing driver, he recognized the motorsport potential of the F1 early on. Together with like-minded people such as Ray Bellm and Lindsay Owen-Jones, he negotiated a deal with McLaren boss Ron Dennis: They bought several F1s (both road versions and cars modified for the track) to enable the development of a racing version - the McLaren F1 GTR. This commitment paved the way to great success on the track, including an overall victory at the 1995 24 Hours of Le Mans.
  • The outstanding build and construction quality of the McLaren F1 is a key theme. Bscher reports that the car was built "beyond reproach" - practically every component was painstakingly crafted by hand, almost like yacht building. However, this attention to detail came at a price: the project was hardly commercially viable, as even the very high purchase price barely covered the enormous manufacturing and development costs. McLaren created the F1 more as a technical masterpiece and image carrier than as a profit-maker in the classic sense.
  • The McLaren F1 impresses with a unique design concept and technical features that make it an icon to this day. The central seating position of the driver with two passenger seats offset to the side behind it is striking - a layout that no other production car offers. In addition, there is an ultra-light carbon fiber monocoque frame and a 6.1-liter V12 engine from BMW with 627 hp, which powers the vehicle weighing only around 1,150 kg (dry). The result was driving performance "like something from another planet": the F1 accelerated brutally and was the fastest production car in the world at the time.
  • Even from today's perspective, the performance data of the McLaren F1 is impressive. Bscher compares the acceleration of his F1 with that of a modern Ferrari SF90 Stradale - a hybrid super sports car from 2020. Although the SF90 shifts even faster thanks to the modern dual clutch and therefore accelerates slightly faster overall, the subjective feeling in the McLaren F1 is at least as impressive. The brute power delivery of the McLaren when stepping on the gas pedal was therefore already on a par with today's hypercars in the 1990s.
  • Because the McLaren F1 has to manage without electronic driving aids, it is a challenge to drive. Neither ESP nor traction control intervene, and even ABS is very rudimentary - if available at all. Cold tires and the extremely direct steering of the production model could quickly lead to tricky situations when the rear end broke away without giving the driver much warning. This uncompromising handling demanded everything from even professionals: Bscher recounts that top racing drivers such as Klaus Ludwig jokingly referred to it as the "Angel of Death" and even a driver as experienced as Bernd Schneider rarely felt as much respect or even fear in a car as he did in the F1.
  • In order to make the McLaren F1 more controllable, Bscher made individual modifications to his car. One of the first updates was a larger steering wheel: the F1's original tiny steering wheel made the steering extremely nervous, so Bscher had Gordon Murray himself make a slightly larger steering wheel. This made the steering less hectic and easier to control. Bscher also had softer suspension springs and dampers fitted to his car - a special solution that no other F1 received. According to Bscher, these changes significantly improved driveability without sacrificing the excellent cornering dynamics.
  • Bscher shares his experience of having driven the McLaren F1 both in everyday life and on the racetrack. In around ten years of ownership, he covered around 25,000 km in the car - a relatively high mileage for an F1 - and didn't have a single accident or spin. He attributes this to the fact that he drove the car with great respect and step by step, as well as relying on the aforementioned modifications. Although Bscher rarely used the F1 on public roads, when he did drive it, the car attracted everyone's attention: thanks to its futuristic but not aggressive appearance, the McLaren was even admired by passers-by. For example, older people spontaneously approached him and marveled: "My God, that's beautiful!" Bscher was once stopped by the police on the highway - not for an offense, but because the officers wanted to take a closer look at the exotic car.
  • In the course of the interview, Bscher compares the McLaren F1 with other super sports cars and places it in historical perspective. He emphasizes that in the 1990s - under the leadership of Luca di Montezemolo - Ferrari underwent a development that was second to none and left the competition behind. While McLaren initially did not produce a successor after the F1 (until the MP4-12C years later), Ferrari continuously perfected its models (from the F40 and F50 to the Enzo and LaFerrari). Bscher is particularly impressed by the current Ferrari SF90 and says he knows of nothing comparable. Although McLaren's newer sports cars are outstanding, he still sees Ferrari at the top in terms of brand prestige and fascination.
  • Finally, the formative minds behind the McLaren F1 and its history are also discussed. Designer Gordon Murray is regarded as a "kind of genius" (in the words of Bscher) with uncompromising ideas, who created the F1 as the ultimate driver's car. McLaren boss Ron Dennis played an important role in the background: he only agreed to the racing car project after Bscher and colleagues convincingly explained to him that otherwise there would probably not be sufficient demand for the F1. In addition, names such as Walter Röhrl - whose difficulties with a modern F1 were the trigger for this conversation - as well as racing drivers such as Bernd Schneider and Klaus Ludwig, who had respectful experiences with Bscher's F1, are mentioned in the conversation. Anecdotes about celebrity owners (e.g. Rowan Atkinson, who crashed his F1 twice) also underpin the McLaren F1's status as a fascinating but challenging legend.

History of the McLaren F1 and Bscher's connection to it

In the early 1990s, McLaren launched the F1, a super sports car that set new standards as the most expensive and fastest production car at the time. However, despite all the advance praise, sales were initially slow: of the 300 units originally planned, only 64 road cars were ultimately built, as hardly any buyers were willing to pay the immense price. However, Dr. Thomas Bscher - at the time a successful banker and ambitious amateur racing driver - recognized the potential of this exceptional vehicle early on. He saw the McLaren F1 not only as a collector's item for the road, but also as the basis for a superior GT racing car. Bscher describes how the F1 seemed "unsaleable" and Ron Dennis (McLaren's managing director) therefore hesitated to invest further in the project. In order to get the F1 onto the racetrack anyway, Bscher and two fellow campaigners (Briton Ray Bellm and L'Oréal boss Lindsay Owen-Jones) came up with a bold plan.

The trio offered to buy several McLaren F1s in a combined order - one road-legal car and one prepared for racing. Bscher himself had to buy a McLaren F1 for this, although he admits: "I would never have bought that thing" - at least not just for the road. But the prospect of racing the F1 justified the purchase for him. In the end, Ron Dennis agreed to sell only five F1s to the group instead of six (Owen-Jones did not want to keep a road car) and to give the green light for the development of the racing version. And so the McLaren F1 GTR was born. As early as 1995, McLaren celebrated a sensational success with it: at the 24 Hours of Le Mans, F1 GTRs took the top places, including an overall victory, despite competing against dedicated prototypes. Bscher, who himself took part in racing series, thus made a significant contribution to the motorsport legend of the F1. His initiative transformed the "pure" road sports car into a champion on the track.

After his active racing days, Bscher remained loyal to the McLaren F1 for a while. He owned his F1 road car for a total of around ten years (from 1994 to 2004) and drove it around 25,000 kilometers. In the mid-2000s, he parted with the car - at least he got his original purchase price back, which he already considered a success ("I thought it was gigantic that I got the purchase price back"). Looking back, however, Bscher smiles that he "unfortunately sold too early". In fact, McLaren F1s today fetch prices in the tens of millions at auction, which impressively underlines the special status of this vehicle. Without Bscher's commitment and belief in the concept, many chapters of this success story - from the race victory at Le Mans to the cult status among collectors - would probably not have been written.

Technical details and special features of the McLaren F1

The McLaren F1 is considered a milestone in automotive engineering for good reason. Gordon Murray, the chief designer, realized an uncompromising vision of a vehicle that broke all conventional boundaries. At its heart was a 6.1-liter naturally aspirated V12 engine developed by BMW Motorsport with around 627 hp and 650 Nm of torque, which gave the rear-wheel drive car, which weighed just over 1.1 tons, brute driving performance. The F1 accelerated from 0 to 100 km/h in around 3.5 seconds and reached a top speed of over 370 km/h - figures that made it the fastest production car in the world for over a decade. Shifting is done in the classic way with a manual 6-speed gearbox. The unique three-seater layout is striking: the driver sits centrally at the front, flanked by two passenger seats a little further back on the left and right. This layout creates a cockpit-like driving experience and at the same time allows space for two passengers - a first in super sports car construction. Despite this unusual arrangement, the F1 even integrated small luggage compartments in the sides - practical enough for a weekend trip for three.

The McLaren F1 was the first production car to have a chassis made entirely of carbon fiber composite material (carbon monocoque), which gave it extreme lightweight construction advantages. Every detail was trimmed for performance: The engine compartment walls were lined with gold foil to reflect heat, and even screws and small parts were optimized for the lowest possible weight. At the same time, the car was manufactured to a quality that was unrivaled at the time. Bscher is impressed and says that the manufacturing quality was "beyond good" - you could literally feel that a technical work of art was being created here in a manufactory. As an example, he describes how the production of just one door of the F1 took countless hours of work: the structure was built up layer by layer in small steps from a kind of "wallpaper roll" (pre-impregnated carbon fiber mat). This almost handcrafted construction method was more akin to building a luxury yacht than a typical car production. Murray and his team made no compromises in order to achieve the ideal power-to-weight ratio and perfect every component.

The McLaren F1 in the road-going version deliberately dispensed with conspicuous aerodynamic aids. Neither a large rear wing nor striking spoilers disturbed the clean-lined bodywork - Murray wanted a design that was as pure as possible without active aerodynamics. However, this also meant that downforce was limited. Later special versions such as the McLaren F1 LM (built in honor of the Le Mans victory) were given a large rear spoiler for more downforce. Bscher himself refused to retrofit a wing to his road-going F1: as useful as additional downforce would have been, he did not find the wing solution "visually attractive". Instead, the car remained smooth and elegant, which also contributed to the unexpectedly positive response from bystanders - the F1 did not appear aggressive, but almost friendly, even though it was a high-bred, high-performance car. Overall, the McLaren F1 combined technical features that were unique at the time: from the central seating position to the high-revving V12 engine without turbocharging and the complete absence of electronic driving aids. This uncompromising concept made it the ultimate driver's car of its era.

Experiences in everyday life and on the racetrack

Dr. Bscher was one of the few people who was able to drive the McLaren F1 regularly - both in normal road traffic and on racetracks. His experience shows that although the F1 is an extremely demanding car, it remains controllable in the right hands. He emphasizes the importance of approaching the vehicle with humility and caution: "You basically have to approach it carefully and with respect, then you slowly feel your way around." According to Bscher himself, he has never experienced a dicey situation with his F1 in all these years: no accident, no spin, no uncontrolled breakaway. He attributes this to his careful driving style and the technical modifications to his car. He also got to know the car "so well" that he knew exactly how it would react in different situations. As a result, unlike some other drivers, he was not afraid when he sat behind the wheel.

In fact, other drivers report that the McLaren F1 instilled respect in them. Bscher talks about his friend Bernd Schneider, one of Germany's most successful racing drivers, who was once allowed to try out Bscher's F1. Schneider said afterwards that he had rarely felt as much fear in a road car as he did in this McLaren - a clear indication of how mercilessly the F1 can challenge a driver. Touring car legend Klaus Ludwig expressed similar sentiments: although he drove the F1, he joked that he "wanted to live" and called the car a possible "angel of death" if it was pushed to the limit without thinking. Such statements show that even absolute professionals had great respect for the F1. For less experienced drivers, this car was definitely too big: "The normal driver was completely out of his depth, even if he only drove it at the weekend," Bscher states.

In everyday life, the McLaren F1 posed a number of challenges. The car had a very tight suspension set-up and no electronic aids - every ride was intense. Bscher found the standard set-up too hard and with too little suspension travel, which offered little comfort on public roads. In addition, the stiff set-up and lack of assistance systems meant that you could hardly feel when the tires had reached their grip limit. The F1 could only be driven safely with warmed-up tires and full concentration. Bscher reacted to this by having his suspension fitted with softer springs - unique among F1 owners - in order to achieve more compliance and feedback. This made the McLaren much more docile in everyday driving. Nevertheless, it remained an exotic model: McLaren did not have a dealer or service network in Germany in the 1990s. Bscher had to organize some of the MOT inspections and maintenance himself. He remembers how he personally took his F1 to the TÜV, as there was no official importer. Once you overcame such hurdles and got used to the special features, however, the F1 rewarded its driver with a driving experience in a class of its own. The car really came into its own on the racetrack: Here, the F1 was able to live out its enormous power and precision regardless of its suitability for everyday use. Bscher and his teammates promptly scored race wins with the F1 GTR - proof that this car could achieve extraordinary things in competent hands both on the road and on the track.

Criticisms and improvements by Dr. Bscher

Although the McLaren F1 was a fascinating car for Bscher, he did not mince his words when it came to its weaknesses. He considered some of the production car's characteristics to be in need of improvement - and as an experienced driver, he intervened himself to get the best out of it. One of the main points of criticism was the steering: the F1's factory-fitted steering wheel was tiny. Although this looked futuristic, it led to an extremely direct steering ratio, which made the car nervous and difficult to control. Bscher describes how he approached Gordon Murray about this: "Watch out, I'm getting a bigger steering wheel here." Murray did indeed have a single larger steering wheel made and installed for his sake. This measure alone "significantly defused the breakaway behavior", as Bscher reports - with more steering wheel travel, he was able to counter-steer more sensitively if the rear end threatened to break away. Bscher also equipped his McLaren F1 GTR racing car with this larger steering wheel. McLaren did not officially offer this modification to other customers, but Bscher used his technical expertise and influence to adapt the driving characteristics to his wishes.

The second starting point concerned the suspension. The F1 was inherently very stiffly sprung and damped - good for smooth racetracks, but less ideal for changeable roads. In addition, the stiff setup initially gave the driver little sense of when the tires were reaching their grip limit. Bscher felt that the car was "too uncomfortable for the road" and requested softer springs. McLaren complied with this request and equipped its F1 as the only example with significantly softer springs and adapted shock absorbers. At the same time, Bscher left the anti-roll bars relatively hard in order to keep body roll to a minimum when cornering. The result was an individually tuned chassis that offered more compliance and gave the driver feedback without destroying the precise handling characteristics of the F1. Bscher says his car has become "significantly more drivable" as a result. However, the softer set-up took some getting used to: when accelerating hard, the car now pitched backwards more ("the muzzle went up"), but this was an acceptable compromise for him.

One point that Bscher criticizes in retrospect is the complete lack of driving aids. Although the first traction control and similar systems were already available at the beginning of the 90s, Gordon Murray deliberately dispensed with anything electronic in order to save weight and not dilute the pure driving pleasure. However, Bscher believes that at least a simple traction control system should have been installed, "which allows the normal driver to operate in a way that he can overlook". In other words, an average driver would have been less overwhelmed with the F1 if there had been some kind of electronic safeguard. In Bscher's eyes, Murray was thinking too much from a professional's perspective and forgot about the average driver - a "mistake", as he puts it. Ultimately, the McLaren F1 in production form was only really controllable for experienced experts. Bscher himself was able to master the car thanks to his racing experience and the aforementioned modifications, but he knows that this was an exception.

Some observers asked Bscher whether he had a rear spoiler fitted to his F1 for stabilization - after all, McLaren later offered an aerodynamics package with the F1 LM. But Bscher rejected this outright: for aesthetic reasons, he did not want to compromise the clear lines of the F1 with a large wing. "Visually, that wasn't an option," he says of the rear spoiler, "even though it would have made sense, of course." His improvements therefore focused on invisible interventions (steering, chassis) that did not distort the nature of the car. Overall, it is clear that Bscher did not regard the McLaren F1 as an untouchable icon, but as a machine that could be optimized and adapted to personal preferences. Through his interventions, he shaped the already extraordinary F1 into his very own individual dream sports car - without losing its basic character.

Comparison with other super sports cars and brands

The episode also places the McLaren F1 in the wider context of the super sports car world of the 1990s and subsequent years. Bscher - who was later active in the industry himself as President of Bugatti - compares the car and McLaren's approach with that of the competition. One point is the commercial side: projects such as the McLaren F1 or the Porsche 959 were ultimately "giveaways" from the manufacturers to themselves - technical feasibility studies that swallowed up enormous resources and were never profit-oriented. Bscher mentions that Porsche had already made a similar loss with the 959, and it was no different for Bugatti (for example with the EB110 in the 1990s or the Veyron in the 2000s). Such vehicles primarily served the brand image and the demonstration of engineering skill. The McLaren F1 fits in here as a car that had an extremely high original price, but whose development costs were never recouped. Other manufacturers such as Ferrari, on the other hand, knew how to produce exclusive super sports cars in limited numbers, but more profitably - and, above all, to continuously add new models.

Ferrari in particular is given a lot of space in the discussion. Bscher praises the development that Ferrari underwent in the 1990s under Luca di Montezemolo. From the Ferrari F40 (around 400 of which were built at the end of the 80s) to the F50, the Enzo and on to the modern era with the LaFerrari and other models, Ferrari has enjoyed a unique series of successes. According to Bscher, no other sports car manufacturer could "match" this career. McLaren, on the other hand, withdrew from the civilian sports car sector for a long time after the F1 - it was not until 2011 that the brand's own road-going super sports car reappeared with the MP4-12C. Although McLaren's modern models such as the 12C or the P1 and 720S that followed later are highly innovative and powerful, Bscher still sees Ferrari as being ahead in terms of charisma and brand value. He emphasizes the special "brand exclusivity" factor at Ferrari: the aura and tradition of the brand from Maranello are unbeatable, which also explains the high collector value of its special models.

Bscher is also not sparing with opinions in a direct comparison of current vehicles. He considers the Ferrari SF90 Stradale - a hybrid super sports car from 2020 - to be one of the most impressive cars ever. He has high praise for it: "I don't know of anything better than the SF90," he says, underlining how far technology has come in the meantime. Interestingly, he notes that the SF90 is sometimes viewed controversially within the Ferrari community and finds fewer enthusiasts, but for Bscher personally, this model sets the standard. This brings him back to the McLaren F1: its acceleration can even compete with an SF90. However, the world of super sports cars has changed dramatically - where the McLaren F1 offered pure mechanics and an analog driving experience, today hybrid technology, electronics and software dominate. Bscher sees both worlds with admiration: the F1 as the pinnacle of the analog era and vehicles like the SF90 as the pinnacle of modern development. The bottom line in the podcast is that the McLaren F1 was in a league of its own at the time, outperforming the competition in many respects, even if Ferrari and co. wrote their own success story over the decades.

Influence of prominent personalities

Extraordinary personalities were behind the creation and history of the McLaren F1. First and foremost Gordon Murray: The South African designer, who had previously designed innovative racing cars for Brabham in Formula 1, brought all his expertise and unconventional ideas to F1. Bscher describes Murray as a "kind of genius" - a visionary inventor with very specific ideas. Murray loved lightweight, purist machines; Bscher mentions that the engineer based the F1 on a Ducati single-cylinder racing motorcycle that had no riding aids and accelerated "rocket-like". Murray transferred this philosophy to the McLaren F1. McLaren boss Ron Dennis was also a driving force: he gave Murray the freedom to build an uncompromising car, but had not originally intended to race it. Dennis was convinced that the F1 was the ultimate road car and was reluctant to expose it to tough competition. It was only when sales figures fell short of expectations and enthusiasts like Bscher put pressure on him that Ron Dennis relented and supported the racing program. His decision to go along with Bscher's proposal laid the foundations for F1's motorsport success.

Charismatic figures also played a role on the customer side. Without the enthusiasm of people like Thomas Bscher, Ray Bellm and Lindsay Owen-Jones, the McLaren F1 GTR would probably never have been created. They were prepared to invest huge sums of money and take a risk because they believed in the car's potential. Lindsay Owen-Jones, then head of the L'Oréal Group, is said to have said: "I'll do anything, but I don't want the road car." - Whereupon Ron Dennis allowed him to take just one car (the racing car) instead of two. Such anecdotes show how unusual the circumstances were under which the racing F1 project came about. Bscher and his fellow campaigners combined a passion for petrol and business acumen to convince McLaren. Their success inspired other racing drivers: in the years that followed, numerous professional and private drivers competed and won in the McLaren F1 GTR, which would not have been possible without the initial spark of this "customer troupe".

Finally, the podcast also features prominent drivers and owners who helped shape the McLaren F1 legend. As mentioned at the beginning, rally icon Walter Röhrl described his impressions of an F1 drive: despite all his experience, he found the car demanding and slightly nervous, which prompted Arndt to ask Bscher for more information in the first place. Racing legends such as Bernd Schneider and Klaus Ludwig expressed their respect for Bscher's F1 - as described above - and thus confirmed its enormous performance (and pitfalls). And then there are the famous owners: Rowan Atkinson, known as "Mr. Bean", was one of the few privateers with an F1. He crashed his car twice and had to have it repaired for horrendous sums - an incident that went through the press and highlighted the extreme costs of maintaining this car. Elon Musk, now head of Tesla, bought a McLaren F1 in the 1990s after selling his first company - and also destroyed it in an accident before it even had a license plate. Stories like this contribute to the myth of the F1: They underline the fact that while this super sports car arouses desire and sets technical records, it also demands respect. The involvement of all these personalities - from designers to racing drivers and prominent owners - makes the saga of the McLaren F1 all the more multifaceted and exciting.

Conclusion

The conversation between Karsten Arndt and Dr. Thomas Bscher about the McLaren F1 provides a unique look behind the scenes of one of the most fascinating cars of all time. The end result is a picture of a super sports car that was far ahead of its time and has lost none of its fascination to this day. Bscher has impressively described why the McLaren F1 is considered a "car from another planet": a technically revolutionary concept, coupled with uncompromising implementation, which offered a driving experience that astonished - and sometimes awed - even experienced professionals. At the same time, it became clear that perfection in the car world is relative: as superbly designed as the F1 was, there were aspects (steering, suspension, lack of assistants) that made it difficult in everyday use and could be improved by clever adjustments. It is precisely this human component - an owner who critically scrutinizes and optimizes his dream car - that makes the story tangible and likeable.

For today's listeners, the conversation reveals a great deal that is instructive. For one thing, it shows how much the super sports car cosmos has changed in recent decades: The McLaren F1 embodies the analog era in which a car was still completely at the mercy of the driver's skills. In contrast, today's hypercars - think of a Ferrari SF90 or Bugatti Chiron - are packed with electronics and aids to tame their immense power. Bscher manages to bridge this gap: on the one hand, he enthuses about the pure, unfiltered experience of F1, but also recognizes what modern technology can achieve. The result is an appreciation for both sides - the "old school" of automotive design and the modern art of engineering.

What remains of the McLaren F1 is the legend of a unique vehicle and the stories of the people who were involved with it. Thomas Bscher is undoubtedly one of these protagonists: through his initiative, the F1 found its way onto the racetrack and into the history books, and his anecdotes in this podcast keep the memories alive. The episode makes it clear that the McLaren F1 is more than just a technical data sheet - it is a piece of automotive history that evokes emotions. For fans of the "golden era of the automobile", this interview provides both in-depth information and entertaining anecdotes. You come away from it with the feeling that you have come a good deal closer to the McLaren F1 legend. And one thing becomes clear: the enthusiasm for such exceptional cars connects generations of car enthusiasts - then and now.